(Topic ID: 351930)

Can SMDs Affect Solenoid Response/Power in DMD era Games?

By CelticKnot

88 days ago


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  • 13 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 70 days ago by PinRetail
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    #1 88 days ago

    Ok, I am really reaching here. Bear with me and if I'm way out in left field, I apologize in advance for wasting your time.

    I replaced all the incandescent bulbs on my Champion Pub with SMDs. Happy with the overall result, visually. Quick synopsis, just so everyone has some background:

    Comet 1SMD Retros for the GI, 2SMDs for inserts and backglass.
    Comet various flashers for all flashers.

    Since I replaced the flashers... I *THINK* my jump rope solenoids (the popper and the jump rope magnet) have been firing with too much force. Again, I think when I replaced the flashers is when it started happening. Prior to lighting upgrades, they seemed to fire properly and accurately, but now the popper (the solenoid that launches the ball into the jump rope toy) blasts it too far, almost to the side wall sometimes, where it hardly lands on the jump rope magnet. And if it happens to land on the , the jump rope manget launches the ball very high or irregularly, so that I'm lucky to get one jump, even if I time it correctly.

    I think you know where I'm going with this.

    Could the SMDs, in all their power-saving glory, be causing adverse affects in gameplay? By perhaps not drawing ENOUGH current from the solenoids?

    Thanks for your thoughts, I looked at the solenoid/flasher table tonight and didn't see an immediate connection, but I'm no expert.

    @mods, sorry if this is in the wrong forum, please move to DMD if needed.

    #2 88 days ago

    It's an interesting question.

    Tuukka did some calculations here:

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinball-power-consumption#post-7150653

    Basically he said if you swapped 50 bulbs, you'd save 70 watts of power.

    Presuming you replaced 100 bulbs, that would be 140 watts of power, out of an average power draw of 350w for a pinball (elsewhere in the thread).

    Now, in a perfect world, the power supply supplies what the output demands.

    But in the real world, when you 'put a load' on power sources they can sag, trying to get power to everything. That's why when you hit both flipper buttons at the same time the lights will frequently dim a bit.

    So, is it POSSIBLE that the power supply in your pinball was burdened, and by relieving 140 watts of power burden, you allowed the game to more easily apply power to the coils?

    Yeah.

    But how much?

    Well, measure the voltage at your flipper coils. If they have 80v on them instead of 70v, I'd expect them to be a bit more powerful!

    If they are 70v or so, you could still see a bit more power than usual because the burden on the system -right-when-you-need-it- could be improved by having less overall load, but I'd expect very little difference.

    Finally, double check your voltage selection wires at the transformer according to this part of the pinwiki.

    https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_WPC#Primary_Voltage_Selection_Jumpers_at_the_Transformer

    Your schematic diagram is here:

    https://www.ipdb.org/files/4358/Williams_WPC_95_Schematic_Manual_July_1_1997.pdf

    If your transformer was selected for 'low line', instead of what the wiki recommends (120v), I'd expect any effect of relieving the burden on the transformer to be magnified... maybe enough to be what you are noticing.

    In general, this is a bit strange, and I wouldn't have expected it. Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely to be noticeable? It would surprise me.

    #3 87 days ago

    Thanks for the detailed reply, @pinretail.

    If I get the nerve up I will pull out my DMM and attempt to test the voltage on the solenoids in question per your suggestion. My skills with the DMM are of the newbie level but I think I could figure it out.

    One less empirical option: I still have the incandescent flashers I pulled out of the machine, was going to pop them back in and see if that alters the behavior of the solenoids in question. That's the reason I pulled out the schematics last night anyway - to see if I could determine which flashers were on the same circuit(s), but it wasn't as easy for me as I was hoping.

    #4 87 days ago

    Let us know if you need assistance using the multimeter, it's an invaluable tool for pin repairs.

    #5 87 days ago
    Quoted from frunch:

    Let us know if you need assistance using the multimeter, it's an invaluable tool for pin repairs.

    Thanks! I have used it several times already in restoring my Champion Pub but it has been for less complex tests like basic continuity and checking voltage in a bulb socket. No time like the present to learn more advanced techniques! I guess these solenoids will be high voltage; any caveats/advice to not getting fried or worse, damaging the game? I'm guessing there are plenty of articles here on pinside on proper technique as well as the web in general, but it always helps to get pointers for your specific application.

    #6 86 days ago

    I like to use alligator clips to attach the probes to the lugs I'm testing for voltage. PXL_20240218_182046996.jpgPXL_20240218_182046996.jpg

    There's many ways it can be done, but i find the easiest is to get a set of attachments that can slide onto the probes like these (i don't own this kit, just linking this kit on Amazon as an example): http://tinyurl.com/mumspsek

    With the above linked kit, they give you a new set of test probes to plug into your meter plus a variety of different shape/size attachments that can plug into those probes (and they might fit your meter's probes as well). They will allow you to safely connect your leads to big stuff, small stuff, and everything in between. Very useful, def worth the $ in my opinion.

    Depending what I'm testing, I like to clip the leads to the solder lug(s) and/or ground strap etc as needed with the game turned off...so there's no chance of accidentally shorting live power to something it shouldn't reach (if i fumble or slip the placement of the test lead, for instance)... Any way to minimize the chance of connecting things that shouldn't be connected.

    Other than that it sounds like you've got the basics down. Just ask if you're ever unsure where to set everything up

    #7 86 days ago

    Is there anything I need to look for in a damn or will a basic one work? I am also a newbie.

    #8 86 days ago
    Quoted from FireKingpin:

    Is there anything I need to look for in a damn or will a basic one work? I am also a newbie.

    Basic meter is fine, you really just need it to be capable of testing ac and dc voltage, resistance/continuity, and diode test. Most meters have a continuity mode that will produce a beep when continuity is detected (for testing fuses and wires without having to look at the meter for confirmation). If the meter you're looking at covers the above criteria, it should be fine. The more expensive meters out there are overkill for what most of us will need to do with them. You should be able to get something decent for $15-20 I'd imagine. You may also want to consider getting some probe attachments like i was describing in my other post above.

    #9 86 days ago

    I assume you mean DVM (Digital Volt Meter).

    Nothing special for now - as you progress in your skills, you may want to get something more sophisticated, but for now, even a cheap Harbor freight meter will work. The downfall to all the cheap meters out there are the leads. They tend to break easily. A better meter has better test leads, and usually “slip on” accessories such as alligator clips and needle points. My personal favorite is an analog Simpson 260 meter - it’s good for seeing quick changes in a voltage, such as a quick on/off of a switch. (You won’t be able to read the voltage, but the quick movement of the needle gives you an idea that a switch quickly opened/closed).

    Another favorite is Fluke - lots of choices, lots of $$.

    #10 86 days ago

    For measuring a single lamp or LED current when connected to DC voltage almost every DMM will do. But keep in mind if you check a controlled lamp or general illumination current or voltage in a game, most modern games use pulsed drive, and a true RMS capable meter is needed.

    #11 86 days ago
    Quoted from FireKingpin:

    Is there anything I need to look for in a damn or will a basic one work? I am also a newbie.

    The absolutely cheapest ones don't have 'audible continuity'. This means that when you are in the dial setting that has a little 'sound waves' signal, you put your red probe together with your black probe and it audibly beeps.

    I can live without audible continuity, but I like the 'beep when the wire is connected' feature. It's handy.

    Harbor Freight sells a seven dollar multimeter that is... Ok. Upgrade to the twenty dollar one and you get audible continuity.

    If I was buying new today I think I'd be looking at the Fluke 101, for under $50 here:

    ebay.com link: itm

    2 weeks later
    #12 70 days ago

    Ok, I haven't had a chance to put my DMM on the jump rope toy solenoids yet; it's been a crazy busy month. However, I pulled it out tonight to go test a fuse in my PV (solar) breaker box (fuse is blown, unfortunately) and thought I'd snap a pic while I was at it. Here's my DMM, a Home-Depot-purchased Klein MM400. It's not a Ferrari but it does everything I need. The case I bought from Amazon is perfect for keeping the DMM and its leads contained, neat and tidy and even has room for a Klein voltage tester and probably a few other small form factor essentials. I think I'm in for under $70 for the whole package shown.

    To be brutally frank, and frankly, brutal (thank you, "Moonlighting" writers), I haven't used this tool for 1/100th of what its potential use is. Mostly basic continuity tests. Still happy with it and for that price point I think anyone who expects to maintain their own pin should have something similar. It's great for troubleshooting things around your house like dishwashers and clothes dryers.

    ~ CK

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    #13 70 days ago
    Quoted from CelticKnot:

    I haven't used this tool for 1/100th of what its potential use is.

    There isn't any problem with not using every ability your multimeter has.

    For the kinds of work I do, I wouldn't use a temperature probe when there are so many really cool non-contact temperature sensors on amazon... but I haven't even bought them. *shrugs*. Hot is usually pretty easy to figure out *sucks his burnt finger*.

    Hz with duty cycle... in the past 20 years I've been tempted to need a frequency counter on one side project. Not related to repair.

    The big surprising thing in the repair of videogames and pinballs and jukeboxes is that you find you don't use is all the current measurement opportunities most digital meters have. In tech schools current measurements are pretty common, but it's one of those things that you don't really use when you get out of school... at least in my world.

    I cannot remember any post on pinside where it was recommended to use a meter to measure the amps of current to help fix anything here.

    The board repair guys might use more features of a standard multimeter than I do. I get to a certain point in my troubleshooting and then I send boards off to people who have specialized test equipment, and vastly more repair knowledge than I do.

    So, I'm envious of your Klein meter! NICE!!!

    I wouldn't use a lot of it's capabilities either, but that doesn't bother me.

    In practical terms, I could be fixing pretty much everything I use a meter for with the $7.00 Harbor Freight meter. I'm faster when I have audible continuity and a diode test.

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