Zero were upgraded to Mermaid. None. The upgraded Classics only got the screens and 2.0 software. Mermaid also includes: mirrored steel trim, mirrored playfield components, 5- speaker sound system, reflectocab metallic reflective luminescent cabinet artwork, and the below cabinet projector lighting.

Fair

So how many red haired step child Fathoms are there?

It cost $900 and there is at least one because I upgraded mine! Though I still think it will be easier for Haggis to give this away rather than develop and maintain a second software and electronic hardware configuration.

I did it because I figured if I ever go to sell the game it might help me. People seem to like the 2.0 and LCDs. To me the 2.0 software is horrendous and from day one I have just wanted a new Fathom - just like they were made in 1980. That's why I ordered a Classic to begin with.

If only it was just an honest reproduction of the original… with a couple screens and new switches integrated.
That would’ve been much preferred and that’s what I thought I was buying.

Ive been thinking about this more and being positive and thinking Damian will get the job done is fine. I think we're all ok with that. Here's the thing though. Enough is enough. If he's going to do that, then he can do it without everyone's money stuck in limbo. Refund everyone who wants it, when the games are built and ready then he can ask for payment again. Anyone who wants to pay at that point can be first in line. If you or any of the other cheerleaders can admit that that is more than fair, then I (and probably most others) can take you all a lot more seriously.

how you and/ or others perceive my posts is up to the individual
i AM positive by nature and i AM serious with majority of posts
lots of rumours abound in the pinball world and most are not helpful at all.

i will always try and back a fellow country man if possible, except Homepin, he is now Asian as far as i'm concerned, just don't know which part he belongs too?

May those who are waiting be graced with this beautiful machine soon/

Aside from all the personal attacks, isn’t it true that Wayne is securing shipping games to people who would otherwise not receive them?

Those are Mermaids. Don't forget the Classics? None of them have shipped. Zero. Add every single one to the total. I would guess the total including Mermaid and Classic is at least 40-60 yet to ship.

Should they get their money back or not though? You forgot to go into that part.

if they want to, absolutely. i want them to receive their machine though as it is a pearler.
i didn't forget, just couldn't see the point in stating the obvious. Again, i have no affiliation.

Maybe you buy them seeing you are so up Haggis arse and are a supporter, maybe then you can feel the pain these buyers are feeling

Same reason i refused to take your Alien order because i knew you would never get it.

I have shipped 4 games for buyers so far as they TRUST me more than they do Haggis and that's a Fact Why.

Wait, Did Gold1 also support Heighway pinball? Did he get the pin?

Taking full payment and then shipping nothing is where this crossed the line from being simply a badly run company to possibly criminal. That was a choice he made while trying to tread water for his company and it was a bad choice. It went into the realm of Ponzi scheme, but only Ponzi in the sense you take money from someone to try to relieve your debt obligations to another. I forgive this kickstarter stuff where you put a deposit down for some future possibly years away delivery. Anyone doing that knows it may or may not happen, and shouldn't get too bent out of shape if/when it goes south. But told pay me $30k for a machine and it will ship in 2-4 weeks and then using the money entirely for something else ??? Those people should get banned from ever running a business again. And understand of that $30K his actual parts cost was probably $5k. So all he had to do was assemble a machine with the $5k parts, $1K labor, and the other $24k is his to spend on whatever is needed to prop up the company. That he couldn't even do that is ridiculous, and I have no doubt he knew he couldn't deliver at the time he took the money. We all get put in ethical quandaries at some point in life. How we choose to respond to them is the mark of who we are. Damien failed miserably here by any measure. Most who have failing businesses unfortunately don't pass this test.

Oh yes please tell us how Australia really is whilst you are run by a doddery old tool and another waiting in the wings..FKN PLEASE!!!

I like pizza. But my favourite dish is korv stroganoff.

Had to google that and it looks and sounds YUM

I just thought it was interesting that even Ryan decided to throw in the towel.

Checking the sales listing, as mentioned by another poster Ryan explained that he shifted to only buying games to route and wouldn't have routed fathom.

I also want to go on record that I love Ryan C. I dislike choosing favorites, but if pressed he would be mine for favorite pinball podcaster!

Pardon the interruption. And now back to your regularly-scheduled shit show.

That listing was a few weeks before the upgrade kits were announced which was really the start of this now recapitalising shit show. Probably sold a couple of those even though there was “huge demand" and then had to move onto announcing Centaur for more money.
As explained by Damian on Cary’s YouTube those deposits were to buy parts for Centaur 6 months in advance only to find out they weren’t ordering parts early at all as they were getting the parts just in time or however it was explained buy Damian.

Not sure why the mods deleted my post, but we will come to your defense!

No idea, i sure didn't report it. TBH it's quite presumptuous to be telling Aussies what their country is like when i very much doubt you have the faintest actual idea, especially when giving Crocodile Dundee (a movie from 1986) as an example. I would never presume to be telling you yanks how your country is as i've never been there. That's the reason i replied to your post. The defense of us, the world?, welllllll that's debatable on many parts but is off topic and most likely to start a verbal war

Nah. All good carry on all, hope everyone gets what they paid for.

Yeah look, so do i. I think you'll find that most of the Aussies that post in here (a good proportion of which) get labelled as fanboi's or cheer leaders feel the exact same way. Just cause a person like oldskool says he's a positive person doesn't mean he deserves the crap that he's copped in this thread. To be down voted just cause he states he's a positive vibe dude is more a testament to the person who down voted it rather than the author.

deleted as ICBF explaining my self
Aussies are awesome

What? Theres no "if they want to". Theres no shortage of people who want to get their money back I'm sure. The question is, should Damien start giving out refunds to customers or not? Yes, we all want people to get their machine/not lose their money. For a guy who is so against stating the obvious, you sure do state the obvious a lot while avoiding the actual question.

Well that's the obvious sticky-wicket isn't it.

There's never been in history a failing pinball company that had any kind of means to just refund all of their "buyers." That money is long gone/tied up.

No he shouldnt ( just give the refund), some people want the machine and not the deposit.
You really are a strange one aren’t you.
Unless I tell you what you want to hear, you keep probing for something. What answer do you want me to tell ?
Peace out. ✌️

Of course its gone/tied up. There likely will not be any sort of refund offer from Haggis, and people will be lucky to get anything in the end. I simply want to see if one of the most insanely out of touch with reality people will actually come out and say something that would be good for people caught up in the ponzi scheme instead of going to bat for papi haggis just one time.

Yes, we know you and Punkin exist.

We saw it in Deep Root...there's always going to be some "IT'S NOT OVER MAN!!!" die hards who can't accept reality until it punches them in the face. They'll accept it when they have absolutely no choice otherwise.

Skit-B

Why would anyone hold out, when they really really want the machine, when they are just remakes?

I know, they need a brand new machine otherwise they might get cooties. Theft be damned.

It just clicked, you are an attention seeker and feel empowered by up votes.
Whatever floats your boat mate, I just upvoted a few of your posts on different threads too.
“You go girl”

I’m happy you put me in the same sentence as me ol m8 Punkin. He’s a top bloke too.

Peddling saccharine optimism in this thread borderlines on ignorant at this point.
Your fervent passion for Haggis as they perpetually circle the drain is weird.

Not if he has any intention of building those games.. if he doesn't, liquidate and refund what you can. But if he's trying to keep going...It would be stupid to erase his backlog of sold games by giving away money he doesn't seem to have.

What investor is going to give you money, just to give it away in return for nothing but good will? He could get money to finish games because in theory that money is going towards collecting profit that is on the table to take. To spend money to get nothing.. and start over with 'needing to generate sales' is completely working backwards and people would have no motivation to do so.

The challenge is the spot he is in now, no one will want to pay balances until games are on the dock. So he needs even MORE money up front to build games. Any money refunded simply adds to the pile he needs PLUS putting him behind in having to reclaim that sale.

Make no mistake, theres no part of me that believes refunds are happening or will happen. I don't think Damien will do the right thing and/or can't do the right thing. I hope Zach and the other distros will at least help their buyers, but sadly they will probably be strung along as well until things just can't be strung along any more. It was mostly just a hypothetical scenario for weird guys who are "positive" to see if they have any interest in helping people who are realistic and see the writing on the wall for all the money they wasted. Sadly, being positive seems to only mean helping the scammer and not caring if victims are on the hook or not unless it just involves them getting their games with tanked value someday in the far far future of imagination land. If someone is so "positive" that Damien can get the job done, then he can get it done with his own money (or a banks/investor) and not buyers he has literally lied to for years.

If the games were profitable then he wouldn't be in the current situation. Something is seriously messed up if the Fathoms could not be finished even after taking in tens of thousands of $ as deposits for Centaurs.

How do we know how many deposits were taken for Centaurs, like what facts are you basing that monetary value on??

At the very least since most people that reserved games are likely familiar with Pinside, he isn't getting any more "full payment upfront" deposits into his company. In that sense Pinside has done its job and shut off that spigot, just a little too late for many.

But you are right that once you've taken full payment (and probably already spent it [hopefully on more than just a new car and Starbucks every morning]) there is not a lot of reason to give it back (even if you are able) out of good will from his standpoint.

His core problem is not just a lack of cash, but a lack of willing customers that will take a risk on full payment to him having seen what has already happened. He might be forced to set up an escrow process just to even be able to continue as a going concern. Though probably that isn't even on the table now since he likely spending most of his time trying to avoid a receivership process from business creditors.

Profitable for the business is a function of your operational model - not just the product you are building. A game that could lead to a profitable company to build if you finished it in 1 week, may not be profitable if you build it in 6 weeks.

Getting an investor is not just about cash to buy stuff.. it's about getting capitalized enough to FUNCTION at a level that does make sense.

TLDR - You can't operate on a Net90 basis with customers OR creditors once you are so far in the hole. The only way he can function going forward is COD

You don't think anyone ordered a Centaur?

I think we've been through this before, but here is an easy minimum estimate.
5 Pinsiders have a Beast edition in their "collection" (even though zero have shipped):
https://pinside.com/pinball/machine/haggis-centaur-revisited-beast-edition
4 Pinsiders have an Orblivion edition in their "collection" (even though zero have shipped):
https://pinside.com/pinball/machine/haggis-centaur-revisited-oblivion-edition

Beast is $2k deposit, Orb is $3k deposit, so that is 5x2k + 4x3k = $22,000 minimum in deposits.
That's on the low side, obviously, and at least one person here already paid in full for a Centaur.

That’s a couple of months rent in Melbourne. We all know announcing Centaur when they did (before final approval) was an attempt to get another cash infusion. It wasn’t successful and they’ve run out of customers to tap for extra cash.

I still can’t believe Ballypinball claim Haggis have promised to make 2 games a week. Since when have they ever been able to do that, even when they had cash?